Veritas/Malleus/Keening mana consumption

[Monad]

Vaux the difference with the mana consumption is now 20 between veritas and malleus. The difference between the mana cost would be 20 between the veritas and malleus after the change. How is it more nerf to Imperial with this change than it is for nature (whose only pvp rite basicly is veritas) or law (who will be effected on two rites instead one) and how would it actually make manavault more useless? Could you try to explain me through it?

You guys know the numbers first of all with Manavault and how its used. With it, it allowed us to use an extra veritas in dire situations. With this increase our newly acquired rite doesn't seem as useful anymore, it's basically a different nerf from Imperial as it was others.

Basically what I'm saying is, we are essentially the religion who relied on veritas, but now it will be harder for us to cast. I don't like the spamming and I agree something needs to go, but we have no other alternative outside veritas. Thus giving Law with Malleus and Tek with Keening a distinct advantage. This widens the gap essentially of the ones who do not have Malleus/Keening, which is after all the main problem here in most people's eyes.

Currently:
You are able to cast 3-4 veritas without meditating while law/tekstone is able to cast 10-12 malleus/keening without mediating. That's without mana stone or aura. That's a difference of 7-9 in amount of casting to your unfavor.

With the change
You will be able to cast 2 veritas without meditating while law/tekstone will be able to cast 3-4 malleus/keening without meditating. That's without mana stone or aura. That's a difference of 1-2 in amount of casting to your unfavor.
With the use of mana stone, you will be able to cast 3 veritas in rather short time compared to 3-4 malleus/keening, (sure more with law with aura included). That's a difference of 0-1 in amount of casting to your unfavor.

Correct me if I'm wrong with something but I'm seeing the situation in totally opposite - or are my numbers totally wrong here in some way?

[Jyrgen]

You simply wont make a studded user more melee imo.

That's basicly why the 100 healing. Also reactive armor place a part. Also knuckles have been upgraded plenty of times and currently they're easily the best weapon on Pang DPS-wise.

- Boris

I don't think 100 healing would help monks at all really. You just die too fast against metal weapons for it to be useful.
EDIT: And yes, the knuckles are also 1 tile weapon (means, with leet skills, a two-tiler can just kill ya without getting hit at all) and we're using studded armors.

But it's true that these changes would hit (most) monks the hardest. I.e, monks (excluding nature monks) would be just weaker version of mage in PvM. In PvP, I guess monks would still have their uses. But I think something else, other than 100 healing, should be given to monks if these rites get mana consumption increased. Hint hint, 100 meditation or 85 eval?

[Boris]

Yeap, 100 meditation is the second option. See no reason why that shouldn't be granted.

I don't really dig the Eval choice as that'll make Monks too much a like with mages.

- Boris

[Darian Darkmind]

If you do that darian you completely remove the PVM aspect of it which it is imperials main pvm rite aswell.

I understand that, but like said before multiple times before, you can PvM even without veritas. You don't need it to survive. Tekstone has never had veritas and we've never even felt like we'd need it in PvM. Believe me even if you lose it in PvM it won't make things that much slower.

Tekstone hunts with blesses mostly and it doesn't take us any longer to clear a dungeon than it takes any other religion. If we can do it, you can do it. Sure we have swarm which is decent against the "bosses", but it's mostly good only if cast by Darion. Not to mention it is pretty quickly dispelled and only saves us some seconds up to a minute against the big monsters - which there usually are only 3-5 per dungeon. So it saves us up to 3-5 minutes. Nothing to make a real difference.

With our blesses alone we and you can PvM a lot faster than ANY guild out there. So removing veritas from PvM from ALL religions is not a nerf at all. It's a step closer to global balance. Not to mention Nature is supposed to be a PvM religion, not Imperial.

[Glarundis]

The only guys taking a clear hit are Monks. They could be balanced out by making them more melee (100 healing) or religion (100 meditation) oriented.

- Boris

or 85 eval?
since 100 meditation won't give us more mana to spam those rites that'll require high mana (if this change were to happen). we'll fail less, but whatever, i'd rather have the magic boost

(sorry, didn't read this last page before posting)

[Cruxis Bane]

Having 1 rite for PVM doesnt make us as good as Nature. I wasnt trying to be as good as them, but this is the only rite we use in PVM besides maybe once a hunt using curse if that. You also have keening and Pwind for PVM. The point is we use it alot for PVM and its kinda a pain to see it made not as useful because of something dealing with PVP.

[Jyrgen]

I think the PvM aspect of this should be considered more carefully. I like the increased manacost for PvP, but it'd just screw up PvM very much for monks. Perhaps increasing damage in PvM, together with manacost?

[Boris]

or 85 eval?

With 100 meditation, you'll (Monks) reach something called a "priest bonus" - wich will make your stat blesses and AR blesses massive, making you more melee-oriented.

I like the increased manacost for PvP, but it'd just screw up PvM very much for monks.

Basicly you haven't experienced poison fiend knuckles yet. I mean, they're snoggy gloves. You poison from each hit, with a speed of a dagger and the damage is like a blessed sword of a Knight. It's pretty HC.

- Boris

[Vaux27]

Currently:
You are able to cast 3-4 veritas without meditating while law/tekstone is able to cast 10-12 malleus/keening without mediating. That's without mana stone or aura. That's a difference of 7-9 in amount of casting to your unfavor.

With the change
You will be able to cast 2 veritas without meditating while law/tekstone will be able to cast 3-4 malleus/keening without meditating. That's without mana stone or aura. That's a difference of 1-2 in amount of casting to your unfavor.
With the use of mana stone, you will be able to cast 3 veritas in rather short time compared to 3-4 malleus/keening, (sure more with law with aura included). That's a difference of 0-1 in amount of casting to your unfavor.

Correct me if I'm wrong with something but I'm seeing the situation in totally opposite - or are my numbers totally wrong here in some way?

You're right in all of those numbers and it makes complete sense, but we're under the assumptions that Malleus/Keening were always the OP standard. I'm shocked to finally find out that they were only that less of mana, I have to ask why?

Now given that they will be nerfed and Veritas is clearly a squelch problem, both have to be nerfed. I go back to saying that clearly they're(Law) nerfed two ways, but they still have that advantage of the extra offensive rite. So really in essence we have here a weapons weakened, do their said lesser weakened weapon and a completely OP rite. I won't whine on that, I get it and everything...that's just my stance from Imperial.

Now the PvM aspect. Veritas is no longer useless. Flat out changes everything for us, as Esuna's Curse still needs some tweaking. Really we loved Veritas for one lone reason...PvM. I'll talk privately about all of this, but something has to change.

[Darian Darkmind]

Having 1 rite for PVM doesnt make us as good as Nature. I wasnt trying to be as good as them, but this is the only rite we use in PVM besides maybe once a hunt using curse if that. You also have keening and Pwind for PVM. The point is we use it alot for PVM and its kinda a pain to see it made not as useful because of something dealing with PVP.

All big monsters that we'd normally use keening against are immune to it and malleus. Poison Wind is nice, but again it won't haste things up that much.

Veritas is area damage to all undeads, you can clear a graveyard or a room full of liches in mere seconds where as for us it takes few minutes. Still, we can do it and it won't feel slow. We just hit them down one by one.

You're too used to having veritas that the feeling of being without it is causing this panic. Trust me when I tell you, you do not need veritas and this shard, both the PvP and PvM aspect of it would be better off without anyone having such ritual. People rely too much upon one single ritual and that alone should raise some alarms in your head. You know it's very good or else you would not use it in every situation there is. When it's used in every situation and removing it makes you feel hopeless only means it's too good.

Anyway, Jyrgen's idea might work as well. Increasing its damage in PvM might work if people are so afraid to hunt without it. I personally don't care if you have it or not in PvM, because it won't make our hunts any faster. And I don't think it actually makes your hunts faster either if you'd only try alternative methods! Although I don't mind if being in PvM I still think veritas just like malleus or keening should not be used in PvM at all because religious people are already very strong at it.